Old Red Skies - Latest Comments

Re: Gamer Spaces

Ironyca — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:45:04 -0000

It was both very interesting to read and very educational. It's my impression that I can easily find 10 posts dealing with these issues from a female point of view or any other less privileged point of view, but posts like these are rare and probably for the reasons you yourself listed.

Also it's a good point about the lack of space. We think about gamer/geek culture to be THE space for men, but obviously participating in that space, even as you may be the perfect member, comes with a price. For some, they find this "natural", they bought the "Man Standard", but for the ones who didn't, where do they go?
I hadn't thought about that until you brought it up here, it's good to read perspectives different from your own - thank you.

Re: The Ways in Which WoW Has Changed Me

Kadomi — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:28:26 -0000

I want to blog about this subject eventually, was busy last week. I might not need to though, because you basically wrote my feelings on how WoW changed me. When I think of MMOs, I think of my personal heyday, The Burning Crusade. I remember how excited I was to play, every day. Excited to start raiding with my guild. Even excited to do dailies and brave heroics. I always look for that same feeling in other games I try, and never get it. Certainly not in WoW as it is today.

I am not really excited for any other MMO either. I already know Guild Wars 2 won't be the MMO salvation so many people claim it's going to be. Just like all the other games out there, it's only going to be okay.

Re: Gamer Spaces

Klepsacovic — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:56:02 -0000

What bugs me is the bundling of the man concept. Why must eyeliner be automatically bundled with femininity or homosexuality? Or on that track, why must homosexuality be bundled with femininity. I don't mind so much if people are critical of particular things: I'd look ridiculous in eyeliner, but that individual bits don't make some greater Manliness; they're just aspects of a person. What going on here isn't a Manliness thing, but a stereotyping thing: Men act like this, look like this, and when they don't we get confused and tell them to cut it out. It's the same process that pushes women into certain roles and ethnicities into certain careers. "You have this aspect, therefore you must have all these others, or else."

It's absurd that you can take perfectly acceptable, socially and economically productive behavior, and make it utterly deviant and unacceptable by switching an X for a Y or a Y for an X.

Re: Gamer Spaces

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:49:16 -0000

I have been fortunate to find a really good woman. I can barely think of her without swelling with joy. But the weird thing about feminism when I first began learning about it was the reaction some of the girls I knew had towards their men, my guy friends. Me and some buddies made a pact a few years ago to really change. To that end, some of them went back to their girlfriends and opened up. Let's just say it didn't always go well. Some girls wanted the Man Standard, the hard, unfeeling patriarch. That was a turning point for all of us to see something like that, but I'm glad to say we still decided to make the change for ourselves.

There is a feeling of helplessness but the important thing is to realize truth from over worked emotions. I can't change the world or the whole nation, but I can change my little social circle; my block, my friends, my hangouts, my habits, my community. I can directly affect those things. Unfortunately, a lot of guys stop at victimization. It sometimes becomes a cozy crutch to throw one's hands in the air and say "nothing will change" because that means that we don't have to continue with the hard changes. But for some other guys, it's a crippling fear of change. Keep in mind that for us, letting go of masculinity is literally letting go of our identities. A lot of us have felt that it's so integral to who we are that we're nothing without it.

Re: Gamer Spaces

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:42:10 -0000

Was it an essay you read or a book?

I didn't know I'd value blogging the way I do now. It started when I began to really come out of WoW socialization and into the wider gaming sphere online. It's been interesting. I suppose I do get to pass on the stigma, but like I said I did that long enough. And I don't blame you one bit for blaming the quiet standbys. It's a problem and we know it. But it's painful to step up because it requires so much introspection of our values. Yeah there's a lot of guys who don't do this introspection but try to carry the torch anyway (Rosenberg et. al are the most recent public example), but until that inspection is completed guys will do more harm than good every single time.

Re: Gamer Spaces

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:37:11 -0000

I just shrug and keep playing :) My friends get that, but it took a long time for them to question it. It's better fun now that we all understand what we're going through than it was when it was just awkward men saying randomly offensive stuff.

Re: Gamer Spaces

Syl — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:47:16 -0000

It's interesting about the maybe even heightened sexism in male geek spaces...maybe it's a form of over-compensation. it's no secret that male geeks feel/are not only rejected
by their male peers but by women. that is a particularly big blow to the
ego, especially if you apply it to your own theory of how men are
brought up to believe that they must be dominant and in control. yet,
they aren't - because as gamers too they are marginalized on another
level. that doesn't stop them from being sexist though. ;)

"while men are criticized for not changing their ways, very few men find people willing to accept a changed man"

I really, really need to highlight this for truth. your personal
experiences as a man among his male peers just illustrate why feminism
is not only important and liberating for women, but men as well (as
feminists have been trying to explain a hundred times over). if women
are not free, men are not free. and whether it's the societal dictate or
stereotype of "your own sex" or that of the opposite sex you suffer
from, is hardly a consolation - you feel just as wronged or helpless.
neither men nor women choose the system they are born into; but we can
try to at least speak up where we are, among the people we live and make
a change there. it's difficult for you as a man and it's even more
difficult for me as a woman - hopefully that will stop neither of us
though.

Re: Gamer Spaces

copperbird — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 05:00:08 -0000

This reminds me of something I've read in the literature about stigma which is that one of the aspects of privilege is the ability to 'pass' as a member of a non-stigmatised group. For example, I'm Jewish but I'm also white so if I'm in the office (for example) no one need ever know I'm not a regular white british woman unless I go out of my way to tell them that I'm actually a member of an immigrant community with very different customs, that has been widely stigmatised (although not so much these days). I can 'pass' as white british.

I can pass as a non-geeky girl too, all I have to do is never mention that I like geek stuff and just talk about cooking, my husband, and what's on TV this week.

This is one of the reasons I value blogging, I think. Being able to hang out with 'your own kind' is valuable in itself. I wouldn't blame someone for taking the easier route and just being quiet about their stigmatised views. But on the other hand, I absolutely do blame every guy who stood by which I was facing sexism because any of them could have spoken up and said "I don't agree with that." So maybe you can't win :)

Re: Gamer Spaces

Bernard — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 04:15:29 -0000

I look forward to seeing what comes this - perhaps a new blog? A forum? Something else?

Regarding the topic, my response has always been "I am a man and this is how I am." if I'm being overtly compared to the Man Standard, I'll reply with "Hey buddy, f&*k you!"(said with a big smile) always does the trick... :)

Re: The Green Wizard of Sanctuary

Pai — Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:05:35 -0000

I just hope they realize what a very, very bad idea it was to not have an offline mode. Nearly all of these issues would've been moot if at least people could play offline.

Re: The Green Wizard of Sanctuary

Doone Woodtac — Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:50:14 -0000

Pai, your comment disappeared. Here's the quote:

"This was the last straw for me, personally: www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/..."

And to that I say, this is shameful. Their actions lately seem desperate, but given their status in the industry I can't see why.

Re: What Would a Realistic Male Portrayal Be Like?

Doone Woodtac — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:42:01 -0000

It is tricky :)

By realistic we mean reflecting our current cultural values and/or reflecting our *actual* condition. In the post, I'm really asking about both. How do you perceive the reality of games? Do they portray males realistically? It's really something to explore because it leads us to question what is real. And I think many will find that the lines are too blurred, that there's lots of fiction in our reality which we live out everyday.

It's a pickle.

Re: What Would a Realistic Male Portrayal Be Like?

Bernard — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:07:57 -0000

Quite a tricky question to answer :)

What do we mean by 'realistic'?

Do we want games to be realistic, any more than we want novels and films to be realistic?

Re: The Contradictions of the Tomb Raider Creators

Bernard — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:05:20 -0000

I feel slightly conflicted about this story.

I do genuinely believe that the intention was to revise Lara as a believable human being, someone for whom killing does not come naturally and is vulnerable, in the way that we are all vulnerable.

These are worthwhile aims.

Unfortunately, this was lost in translation, as the r word was used and the player/character relationship was described in a weird way that suggested we were the partner/protector of Lara than actually being her.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Ahtchu — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:29:36 -0000

gah. removed the updated post as the double-post. disqus acting up on meh!

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Ahtchu — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:17:53 -0000

@@trredskies
This, I believe is an 'issue' that we will forever speak past one another. Two things:
Gender is a social construct. Gender is a biological construct, actually. And the premise that men and women do not think differently simply based on gender alone flies in the face of eons of scientific findings. The role that estrogen plays in the organ functions of women, the way many women are biologically immune to certain illnesses, the list can go on and on. The takeaway here is that the *mind is part of the body*: the genders are fundamentally different. The beauty of this whole scenario, to me, *IS* the difference that exists and how the two genders can compliment one another. I live my life celebrating that difference, and the stability it provides to the human race.
The face that you think men are "great at coercion" and women are great at "softness" [..] I used this as an example, I did not claim I bought into it. I wasn't born yesterday, and have seen a fair sampling of vice-versa cases for both. It was used for illustrative purposes only in how equality can manifest.
Anecdotally, I hold the door open for men, and have come to the aid of men who were 'vulnerable' at various points throughout my life.

@Syl
Seeing women as soft or weak and therefore in need for protection (chivalry) isn't respect [..] The premise you suggest is that chivalry stems from the middle ages concept here. Perhaps stating that I'm being 'chivalrous' is a misnomer if the terms are carrying too much connotation. Can someone not be 'chivalrous' or 'paternal' without the assumption that the receiving party is 'soft or weak'? My perspective in life is that this question can be answered firmly with the affirmative.

Open letter
My nit to pick with the whole topic is that it is a sensationalists dream. (I do not believe that that is the case here, as TR Redskies is the only place I've ever felt comfortable discussing it, due to the maturity I feel is present.)
The victim card is toted by one side or the other (everyone has been emotionally raped at some point in their lives etc), assumptions as to the interpretation or intellectual processes involved become very ordre du jour (because you aren't seeing my truth, it's because your views are clouded), and blindness of heart sets in with those claiming stereotypes are wrong etc resort to their use as well (only too many examples here). I believe awareness and education are the key to most every problem in society, but at a certain point the volume of topics becomes a turnoff to the sensitivities that might be due consideration.

Re: EULAs and Consumer Rights

Klepsacovic — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:59:50 -0000

I wonder how often Blizzard pays 100% upfront for a service without any ability to gain refunds or otherwise be compensated for failure to deliver. Probably never, because that would be a pretty stupid business move. And yet, that's what they insisted consumers do. I don't like the hypocrisy of them instantly cutting people off from Diablo who miss a payment on their WoW sub, but when the reverse happens, they take no responsibility.

This highlights one of the major problems with online games: We can learn a lot about a game and whether we'll enjoy it by seeing videos and knowing that it is similar to other games, but until we've paid out the money and tested it personally, we have very little idea how well the game will work. I wonder if there would be a way to test that beforehand, perhaps with some sort of 'empty' clients that people can use to test their connections to the servers, checking the reliability and speed.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:44:05 -0000

@awannabe_writer Your last point is true. Still, we can't rely on men to continue to define female heroines. Especially when we do so by making her opposite males. I'm not sure how a resolution that will come about to be honest. I but I do believe it will have to be women teaching men about women.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

awannabe_writer — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:33:52 -0000

Fantastic article - a little spooky how you mirrored so many of my own points in a post I did about this earlier today! Checking their privilege was obviously left off the to do list - I doubt most of the men involved in making this game even know what it means. Writing someone of the opposite gender can be difficult; especially when you don't even question your own stereotypes. I'm still hoping that the new Tomb Raider game will be worth playing (from a story and gameplay pov), even with the problems it may have in gender role conforming tropes.

My only addition to the above would be that getting female designers in won't necessarily improve things; sadly there are a lot of women who just don't see what's wrong in stereotyping. They believe the stereotypes, even live them. I'd love to think more female designers/game writers would result in less tropes and more compelling characters (male and female), but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:22:39 -0000

@Syl
I do want to clarify my own words when say chivalry or paternalism isn't inherently bad. What I really want to say is that it's not inherently bad to want to protect someone or to regard them highly when you genuinely respect their being. But with the way you put it Syl, there might be something wrong with the terms themselves on their face. We can't really detach them from their historical precedents, even if their meaning can evolve over time. Intent doesn't erase the explicit meaning.

I also think people who want to comment on the topic ought to seek education on it historically. But I think most, especially guys, bar ourselves from it by acting on the "feminism is for women" concept, even if we don't really believe that, we act on that sensibility. If we're not acting on that one, then we're telling ourselves that feminism is old, that we're post-feminism (like we're post-racial) because HEY WOMEN VOTE. We have so many excuses for not examining our behavior it's not even funny. I'm not sure that's the case with Ahtchu, but he will prove me right or wrong on that with time :)

As for myself, I occasionally still walk into doors. But I've got a good woman in my life who opens them for me when I don't see them. (In case that was too subtle, I mean to say I'm still prone to sexist behavior.)

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:21:21 -0000

@Syl You said it best.

I do want to clarify my own words when say chivalry or paternalism isn't inherently bad. What I really want to say is that it's inherently bad to want to protect someone or to regard them highly when you genuinely respect their being. But with the way you put it, there might be something wrong with the terms themselves on their face. We can't really detach them from their historical precedents, even if their meaning can evolve over time.

I also think people who want to comment on the topic ought to seek education on it historically. But I think most, especially guys, bar ourselves from it by acting on the "feminism is for women" concept, even if we don't really believe that, we act on that sensibility. If we're not acting on that one, then we're telling ourselves that feminism is old, that we're post-feminism (like we're post-racial) because HEY WOMEN VOTE. We have so many excuses for not examining our behavior it's not even funny. I'm not sure that's the case with Ahtchu, but he will prove me right or wrong on that with time :)

As for myself, I occasionally still walk into doors. But I've got a good woman in my life who opens them for me when I don't see them. (In case that was too subtle, I mean to say I'm still prone to sexist behavior.)

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Syl — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:43:57 -0000

@Doone @ahtchu Seeing women as soft or weak and therefore in need for protection (chivalry) isn't respect. thinking a person weak because of their gender is not respectful. respect is to assume the other person is just as independent and capable as yourself. that doesn't mean you cannot help someone who IS literally weak / in need of help in a situation, but to assume this based on gender is sexism.
the whole notion of chivalry, all the romantic fluff stripped off, is established on the historical imagery of strong knights and helpless, blushing damsels. it so happens that the age of chivalry which most Europeans/Americans conceive somewhere around 14th century England, also established another not-so-unimportant detail about the ideal, admirable woman: that she be a virgin, like holy Mary. that's the stereotype that the age of chivalry stylized as worthy of adoration or 'the pedestal': the virgin. the 'wife' was quite okay too.

So yeah...we could go on now and examine all the historic details of the chivalry period - it must have been so great to be a woman then. you get to listen to love poetry while they slap that chastity belt on and sell you off for some profitable marriage match.
I realize this asks for a lot of education and background info; but once you study topics like this and history, you cannot ignore the idealized notions of chivalry anymore.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:18:13 -0000

I'm glad you bring those two pictures up.

I brought up the hostage situation to highlight what I meant about all the women in pictures on the site are in positions of vulnerability or being exploited on some level. The last picture with Lara in a bow and arrow ...she's point at a deer. A deer. This goes to my point that there are no screenshots of her doing anything competent or heroic, though I'll give you a point on the hostage photo. She's at least pointing the arrow at a bad guy.

Most of the images here and on the site are of Lara getting beat up, running, cowering, or being vulnerable. That's still true today, I haven't seen them update the gallery.

And thanks for the feedback.

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:17:41 -0000

Re: The Story of a Woman: Lara Croft

Doone Woodtac — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:15:05 -0000

@ahtchu I think you have missed every key point I've tried to explain here, but I thank you for putting the thought into this comment. Let's see if I can't clarify what I feel is wrong with it, but also I recommend reading the comments below because many have expressed some points very well on this question.

You're operating from a false position, in which you believe men and women *are* inherently different, *do* inherently think differently as a matter of gender, and therefore should be written differently. You mentioned this at least twice in your response, especially when trying to explain equal vs identical. The reason men and women *might* not see different opportunities isn't related to their gender, but you clearly think so. Gender is a social construct. It's not the "natural" disposition of males and females. Therefore you have no reason to expect that any given woman or man wouldn't "see identical opportunities."

Chivalry and paternalism, no matter how benevolent or well intentioned, can still be considered sexist ...and the context in which men usually use it is usually sexist, such as what Rosenberg did. Besides, I specifically raised the same question you did and concluded it's not inherently a bad thing. Here's a great site with an article that can explain the problems with paternalism and chivalry far better than I can: http://finallyfeminism101.word...

The fact that you think men are "great at coercion" and women great at "softness" is precisely the problem my article discusses. Precisely. Think on it a bit more and I think you'll start to see what I'm talking about here :) You clearly are operating from a sexist stance, and it's completely understandable where you're coming from. But you need to know it's extremely sexist. Now only you can examine why that is. There really is nothing I can tell you here to change your mind and I don't want to. I want you to figure out what could possibly be the problem with what you typed. The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions. Good intent doesn't erase sexism.

Part of examining our personal sexism as males, especially white males, is hard and weird. It's hard because we have, all our lives, operated from the perspective that EVERYONE ELSE is "Else" and we are the default. Therefore, when we're trying to examine our sexism, we literally don't see it. We don't see the privilege we stand from and in MOST CASES we don't believe we're in a privileged position. We don't fully appreciate that we look at others and define them based on *us*. The weird part about examining our own sexism is discovering most of what we do toward women is probably extremely offensive and we've been oblivious to it. It's weird to know how to act once you start to accept that perhaps in our efforts to be benevolent we're reinforcing negative stereotypes, creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

The simplest way to think on it is in terms of what you'd do for a man. Every time. Ask yourself: If I think opening doors for women is proper, then I should open doors for men. If I think protecting Lara is proper, then I should also think of playing Nathan Drake from that perspective. You're a smart man. I feel confident you understand exactly what I'm saying here.

It doesn't matter that you or I, or any other guy thinks chivalry is kindness. What matters is that a whole host of women think it's patronizing. That really is all that matters, how we are making others feel when we act in our daily lives. Some take the road of "I can't please everyone/someone is bound to be offended by something", but those are complete cop outs. It's never about pleasing "everyone". It's about doing what's right after you figure out what you've been doing wrong.